Hi SweetPeas!

There have been many chats with people one on one and over various internet chat channels. So I thought I'd open up the topic here on the forum. Kingston has been without a gay bar for some time. I want to know what your thoughts are on the subject. Do you want a gay bar? What would the ideal gay bar look like? What would it have? Reply with your thoughts

Ms. Tyffanie Morgan

Website: http://www.tyffanie.com
Podcast: http://www.tyffanie.com/BWT

I'd love to see a gay bar in Kingston again, but I worry it's not economically viable... that seemed to be the downfall of Wally's and Shay Foo Foo's (as far as I know.)

Perhaps an "alternative" bar that's not explicitly Queer in nature? When I lived in Halifax, there was(is) a bar, Reflections Cabaret that functioned as a gay bar with drag shows &c but also turned into a mixed crowd as the night went on. It's my understanding from brief experience that El Convento Rico in Toronto functions along the same lines. Also Rico's had a nice lady selling Empanadas by the door.

Alternative bars present their own problems, of course. There are misunderstandings which can lead to fights (though this is universal,) and there is not generally as great a sense of Queer community (if you desire an insular sense of community.)

A "fancy" somewhat-alternative club would seem to exist in Joy on Ontario street, though some have mentioned staff as being openly homophobic at the start.

I largely agree with Blake (though I have no idea what an empanada is).

It would be nice to have a bar that played a variety of music (not just dance music). As to a sense of queer community - don't get me started on how little of THAT I've seen in gay bars...

To me, a nice quiet place like the Toolbox (RIP) would be ideal - but maybe that's just me.

Timmybear Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I largely agree with Blake (though I have no idea
> what an empanada is).

[en.wikipedia.org]

Meat pies! Nice, after a night of dancing. I'm not suggesting this for the theoretical bar, just sayin'.

As to having a variety of music, I agree. I think (though I was too young to get in most of the time) the 477 had a variety of styles in the different rooms?

A quieter area with seating and a pool table would be nice, as well.

would be a nice idea



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2009 03:42AM by armyman35.

Hi my name is Gerald I am getting out of the Army in Edmonton at the end of April and was thinking about moving to kingston, I have family their and, I was just thinking maybe about opening a Gay Bar/lounge. I was wondering why their is no more Bar and what Happened to the last one, is this possibile in Kingston, would people support a bar, I would like this bar to be a COMMUNITY BAR .

I'm not sure what exactly happened to Shay Foo Foo's (the last bar) but it's a skeevy straight club now. It may have been lack of support, or it may have been something else entirely. Tyffanie might know more about it, I believe you can contact her at tyffanie.com

Wally's (the second last bar) had a terrible location, which was its major flaw (in my opinion.) It was way out Bath road, and ideally you'd want anything you opened to be downtown, or at least reasonably near Queen's.

I think there's probably support to maintain a small-scale bar/lounge, but you have to remember the students from Queen's are going to be a major force in that and many of them don't stick around for the summer.

In any event you'd want to check with someone like a business/property lawyer first to check city bylaws and zoning and such first.

A gay / alternative bar would be great in Kingston and for Kingston. KAP and KEDCO have been working hard to market Kingston as a gay travel destination over the past three years. One of the missing ingredients is a gay meeting place for locals and gay visitors to this travel destination. I have been an owner of hospitality venues from Cornwall to Toronto for 20 years now and understand completely the challenges. Lets look at Kingston's track record. Previous attempts have been financial disasters for the entrepreneurs involved. Their investments have been lost despite their failure-averse attitudes and hard work. Having been a patron of the many gay establishments in this city since the 1980s I can say that few were thriving at any time. Busy meant two nights a week from 11:30 to closing. This is too limited a revenue base to be viable. Costs include rent, licensing, inventory, utilities, insurance, staffing, marketing, furniture and fixtures. Even a small food, beverage and entertainment venue needs to generate 30 to 40 K in revenue per month to remain viable and 5 hours per week of busy sales won't cut it!

My experience tells me that the gay regional market and gay tourism should be able to sustain a well-managed bar / pub / cabaret. While the demographic would be primarily lgbt one needs to be reception to the gay-friendly and alternative market. Weekends should draw gay-friendlies from Belleville to Brockville and from Smith's Fall's to Watertown. Frankly you need everyone's business to survive and while being branded as a gay bar you want all to feel welcome. People need to patronize your venue not because it is "gay" but because they receive good value and service in a friendly and clean setting.

What is the best concept for profitability in the Kingston market? Create a small, manageable meeting place and leave the dance club to the big promoters. Open at 4:00 from Tuesday to Sunday in a street-level, side-street downtown location (commercially-zoned) with a friendly good-looking bar tender (male and female) and a limited but excellent food menu. Introduce yourself to every customer and create excitement and synergy in your space with a visible bar and high top tables that make it appealing from the street for passers-by. Welcome people of all ages and sexual orientation and get known as a popular destination for after-work drinks, early evening drinks before heading to the clubs and a friendly vibrant meeting place to spend the late evening until last call. You need to turn over your clientelle at least three times per evening. Have an entertainment corner for limited live performances once or twice a week and make sure your food is excellent.

Some may say that this already exists with Ben's Pub. It seems generally to conform to the template I painted above, Ben's is a wonderful place with a great spirit of hospitality but it may not want to become Kingston's lgbt meeting place or may be missing some key ingredient in the important formula. You be the judge.

For potential entrepreneurs, be prudent about your business plan and carefully consider my advice. More hospitality businesses fail than succeed and you need to be on the mark with all decisions to guarantee viability. For patrons, encourage entrepreneurs and give them your support. Make it clear however that you are there not just because it is a "gay" bar but because you expect excellence in service and product and when you don't receive that let them know.

Interesting post, Fortman. Not for nothing, it's worth noticing that the former Magazine store/cafe turned tourist trap/cafe turned cafe at 342 King has closed, and it's already set up to be a cafe/bar etc. with nice high ceilings and an upper floor/secret patio. It couldn't be more downtown, it's across from Tango which already has a little bit of a gay following, and it's between the hub and Ontario st.

Any potential investors reading take note.

Yes ! Kingston , indeed needs a gay bar I own a small special events company here in town, but it would take alot of work. Somebody should apporach Legends . Maybe I can do something for PRIDE. Call me. I'd be glad too.

I doubt it will be possible to sustain a gay bar. I heard that the last 2 failed because we didn't support them well enough financially. But, if another one arises, be sure to let us know so that we can all go and support it.